本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Voices: Church and state
Catholic bishops say they may refuse communion to politicians who pass laws that violate church doctrine. We asked you whether you think this is reasonable. Here's what you had to say.
To me, this is pretty comical. On the plus side, it could accelerate the Catholic church’s fade into irrelevance. Sooner or later, members of the church will be fed up with the antics, and arrogance, of this institution.
Chris Michaels, Oakville, Sept. 30
I'm delighted to see the Vatican consider this step. It is likely to have the counter effect of increasing the separation of church and state in this country, and that is a step forward for all of us.
Michel Desjardins, Waterloo, Sept. 30
This is probably one of the top subjects that really angers me and I was raised a Catholic. How pathetic and desperate is the Catholic church when you have to instill threats, fear and exclusion to deter members from differing from the faith. Why would I want the Catholic Church to have any hold over this country with their patriarchal and discriminatory teachings?
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
Completely unreasonable. Religion is a subjective choice and making laws must be objective. The church cannot be allowed to sway the laws of a country by forcing their ideas onto everyone. The Catholic Church needs to understand that they are not the only game in town -- others are entitled to their beliefs.
Laurie Goodman, Toronto, Sept. 30
I say the sooner we abolish religion on a global spectrum the better off we will be as a human race. Why people still listen to ideals that are thousands of years old blows my mind.
Jeremy Ball, Lindsay, Sept. 30
It's mutual disregard. If politicians can pass laws in total disregard of religious feelings of the people in general then the Church has the same right. Ultimately it's the people who have to decide whether they are with the Church or such politicians.
Dilpreet Singh, Mississauga, Sept. 30
Do they think by threatening and exclusion they will lure people to their religion? This is horrible and the fact that they would refuse anyone the chance to go to church and take part in their service should just make people realize this is not what religion is supposed to be about. No one should be scared into joining and believing in a religion. It's absolutely ridiculous and this will just further alienate the Catholic Church from the rest of society.
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
I was under the impression that Henry VIII gave us separation of church and state? We still have ties to Britain via the Governor General, so I think this is a very wrong and dangerous move on the church's part. The church members are falling every year and this could be a fatal move.
Alan Brown, Thorold, Sept. 30
While he's at it why doesn't he just excommunicate all the politicians and start another investiture contest. You think the Church would learn from its past history and not be so punitive rather than proactive.
Natasha Blight, Waterloo, Sept. 30
Bravo for the Catholic Church. The politicians have no right making decisions regarding a Sacrament of marriage. Martin is a turncoat from the religious society.
Edgar King, Peterborough, Sept. 30
If the churches, synagogues, temples and mosques want to play politics then they should be required to pay the taxes that fuel politics and civil institutions.
Jay William, Toronto, Sept. 30
Being raised as a Catholic, I was always taught the "doors are always open". I don't regret at all not practicing the faith since it's turned out to be a high society of exclusion. I in no way think the church has any authority over this country because that would mean a lack of respect for all religions and I and others will not stand for that.
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
Is it reasonable? No. Is it a good idea? Yes. If it helps sustain the values the country was established on and set moral standards that benefit all people how can it be wrong? Politicians need to be reminded they are not there to serve the minority, but the majority. Good Christian values will not hurt anyone. They may frustrate the immoral, and so they should.
John Mitchell, Cambridge, Sept. 30
The present Pope, even as a cardinal, has always wanted to purify the Catholic Church. He wants a church of the pure. If he is successful then in the end there will be no one left in the Church but himself.
Philip Fraser, Ottawa, Sept. 30
Whether every person agrees with the decision or not, it is certainly reasonable. The people in question are not being barred from church, only from the sacrament. Church is welcoming to all but does have certain basic standards. It is not simply a club where all views are equal. The bigger problem here is that politicians forget that Canada has separation of church and state not separation of church from state. Politicians want the Church to stay out of state matters but don't seem to understand that the other half of the bargain is that they are to stay out of Church matters. The result is interference in areas like gay marriage, forced "permission" for gay prom dates at Roman Catholic schools, and anti-life abortion legislation. Ultimately these choices have consequences for the politicians who make them.
William Vander Wilp, Kingston, Sept. 30
I fully agree with the action that the Catholic Bishops are preparing to implement. I will further state that Paul Martin and all other politicians like him should be refused Communion.
Kimball Jarvis, Trenton, Sept. 30
This, once again, points out the fallacy of an organization that bases its doctrines on mythology and superstition. The Church continues to show great delight in proving how irrelevant it has become.
John Nowlan, Halifax, Sept. 30
It is reasonable. Either you're Catholic or you're not. The sanctity of marriage which includes the continuance of the life cycle must be protected. It is fair for same sex partners to be entitled to all the benefits that a married couple is entitled to, but same sex marriage crosses the line. That piece of paper has just become meaningless.
Gus Morelli, Brampton, Sept. 30
I don't think that it is appropriate for the Catholic Church to get involved in politics. Withholding communion is an indirect way to influence politicians and the public in general. Church and state are separated for a reason, so that they don't interfere with one another. Nations that have these two institutions intertwined are currently experiencing unrest and wars. It would be very unwise for the Catholic Church to try and raise its level of influence in this manner.
Barbara Briden, Deep River, Sept. 30
Regardless of how one may feel on matters of Church dogma, the Church itself has no other option but to uphold it. We here in North America seem to feel that we can choose only those aspects of our religious faith like we were at a buffet table and those that do not fit with our lifestyle we can ignore. Either you are or you ain't.
Susan Cain, Brampton, Sept. 30
Our elected representatives represent us, not the church they belong too, be they Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, or what have you. When a church tries to force a political agenda through threats like this its blackmail, plain and simple.
Nicholas Cioran, Toronto, Sept. 30
It's as absurd as the antiquated doctrine it's designed to prop up.
Lorne Riley, Geneva, Switzerland, Sept. 30
Finally the Church is actually doing something that promotes the separation of the state from the church.
Daniel Allen, Belo Horizonte, Brazil, Sept. 30
This is not reasonable. It's time Canada broke off relations with the Vatican.
Anthony Oland, Wasaga Beach, Sept. 30
Ontario already has a violation of (the separation of) church and state: Catholic schools supported by public taxpayers. If the Church wants to involve itself in politics, maybe now is a good time to consider one education system for all Ontarians.
James Taylor, Toronto, Sept. 30
Politicians are suppose to represent the people of the country, governing based on the beliefs of their constituents. Surely the Catholic Church should not strong-arm politicians into ignoring those who voted for them. Perhaps not all politicians even believe in same-sex marriage on a personal level, but realize making it legal is the just thing to do.
Jodi Combe, Southampton, Sept. 30
If the bishops and the Pope want to control the votes of elected officials, I would seriously have to question voting for a Catholic candidate. And I'm a Catholic myself.
Joe Pritchard, Toronto, Sept. 30
The Catholic Church needs to understand that not everyone in the world is Catholic, and some people might actually have different views. How dare the Pope even suggest that they would try to influence politicians with this threat. We elected our government to make decisions. We did not elect the mighty Catholic Church to make decisions for us.
John Salovaara, North Bay, Sept. 30
Not just politicians, but any people who violate Church doctrine and do not follow the rules of a religion should not be partaking in Communion. What makes that unreasonable?
Rob Remba, Toronto, Sept. 30
This is very reasonable. These politicians would sell their souls for votes. The current government is anti-Christian as demonstrated by actions on legislation.
Michael Forbes, Burlington, Sept. 30
If it doesn't break the law of the land, separation of Church and State for me means that I do not comment on whether a tenet of someone's faith is reasonable.
Justin Tyleman, Toronto, Sept. 30
It should not be a problem for churches weighing in on political matters. Let's hear from them. Also, let's tax them like any other corporation. Pay to play is the answer.
Greg Fehrenbach, Tweed, Sept. 30更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
Catholic bishops say they may refuse communion to politicians who pass laws that violate church doctrine. We asked you whether you think this is reasonable. Here's what you had to say.
To me, this is pretty comical. On the plus side, it could accelerate the Catholic church’s fade into irrelevance. Sooner or later, members of the church will be fed up with the antics, and arrogance, of this institution.
Chris Michaels, Oakville, Sept. 30
I'm delighted to see the Vatican consider this step. It is likely to have the counter effect of increasing the separation of church and state in this country, and that is a step forward for all of us.
Michel Desjardins, Waterloo, Sept. 30
This is probably one of the top subjects that really angers me and I was raised a Catholic. How pathetic and desperate is the Catholic church when you have to instill threats, fear and exclusion to deter members from differing from the faith. Why would I want the Catholic Church to have any hold over this country with their patriarchal and discriminatory teachings?
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
Completely unreasonable. Religion is a subjective choice and making laws must be objective. The church cannot be allowed to sway the laws of a country by forcing their ideas onto everyone. The Catholic Church needs to understand that they are not the only game in town -- others are entitled to their beliefs.
Laurie Goodman, Toronto, Sept. 30
I say the sooner we abolish religion on a global spectrum the better off we will be as a human race. Why people still listen to ideals that are thousands of years old blows my mind.
Jeremy Ball, Lindsay, Sept. 30
It's mutual disregard. If politicians can pass laws in total disregard of religious feelings of the people in general then the Church has the same right. Ultimately it's the people who have to decide whether they are with the Church or such politicians.
Dilpreet Singh, Mississauga, Sept. 30
Do they think by threatening and exclusion they will lure people to their religion? This is horrible and the fact that they would refuse anyone the chance to go to church and take part in their service should just make people realize this is not what religion is supposed to be about. No one should be scared into joining and believing in a religion. It's absolutely ridiculous and this will just further alienate the Catholic Church from the rest of society.
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
I was under the impression that Henry VIII gave us separation of church and state? We still have ties to Britain via the Governor General, so I think this is a very wrong and dangerous move on the church's part. The church members are falling every year and this could be a fatal move.
Alan Brown, Thorold, Sept. 30
While he's at it why doesn't he just excommunicate all the politicians and start another investiture contest. You think the Church would learn from its past history and not be so punitive rather than proactive.
Natasha Blight, Waterloo, Sept. 30
Bravo for the Catholic Church. The politicians have no right making decisions regarding a Sacrament of marriage. Martin is a turncoat from the religious society.
Edgar King, Peterborough, Sept. 30
If the churches, synagogues, temples and mosques want to play politics then they should be required to pay the taxes that fuel politics and civil institutions.
Jay William, Toronto, Sept. 30
Being raised as a Catholic, I was always taught the "doors are always open". I don't regret at all not practicing the faith since it's turned out to be a high society of exclusion. I in no way think the church has any authority over this country because that would mean a lack of respect for all religions and I and others will not stand for that.
Raquel Teixeira, Scarborough, Sept. 30
Is it reasonable? No. Is it a good idea? Yes. If it helps sustain the values the country was established on and set moral standards that benefit all people how can it be wrong? Politicians need to be reminded they are not there to serve the minority, but the majority. Good Christian values will not hurt anyone. They may frustrate the immoral, and so they should.
John Mitchell, Cambridge, Sept. 30
The present Pope, even as a cardinal, has always wanted to purify the Catholic Church. He wants a church of the pure. If he is successful then in the end there will be no one left in the Church but himself.
Philip Fraser, Ottawa, Sept. 30
Whether every person agrees with the decision or not, it is certainly reasonable. The people in question are not being barred from church, only from the sacrament. Church is welcoming to all but does have certain basic standards. It is not simply a club where all views are equal. The bigger problem here is that politicians forget that Canada has separation of church and state not separation of church from state. Politicians want the Church to stay out of state matters but don't seem to understand that the other half of the bargain is that they are to stay out of Church matters. The result is interference in areas like gay marriage, forced "permission" for gay prom dates at Roman Catholic schools, and anti-life abortion legislation. Ultimately these choices have consequences for the politicians who make them.
William Vander Wilp, Kingston, Sept. 30
I fully agree with the action that the Catholic Bishops are preparing to implement. I will further state that Paul Martin and all other politicians like him should be refused Communion.
Kimball Jarvis, Trenton, Sept. 30
This, once again, points out the fallacy of an organization that bases its doctrines on mythology and superstition. The Church continues to show great delight in proving how irrelevant it has become.
John Nowlan, Halifax, Sept. 30
It is reasonable. Either you're Catholic or you're not. The sanctity of marriage which includes the continuance of the life cycle must be protected. It is fair for same sex partners to be entitled to all the benefits that a married couple is entitled to, but same sex marriage crosses the line. That piece of paper has just become meaningless.
Gus Morelli, Brampton, Sept. 30
I don't think that it is appropriate for the Catholic Church to get involved in politics. Withholding communion is an indirect way to influence politicians and the public in general. Church and state are separated for a reason, so that they don't interfere with one another. Nations that have these two institutions intertwined are currently experiencing unrest and wars. It would be very unwise for the Catholic Church to try and raise its level of influence in this manner.
Barbara Briden, Deep River, Sept. 30
Regardless of how one may feel on matters of Church dogma, the Church itself has no other option but to uphold it. We here in North America seem to feel that we can choose only those aspects of our religious faith like we were at a buffet table and those that do not fit with our lifestyle we can ignore. Either you are or you ain't.
Susan Cain, Brampton, Sept. 30
Our elected representatives represent us, not the church they belong too, be they Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, or what have you. When a church tries to force a political agenda through threats like this its blackmail, plain and simple.
Nicholas Cioran, Toronto, Sept. 30
It's as absurd as the antiquated doctrine it's designed to prop up.
Lorne Riley, Geneva, Switzerland, Sept. 30
Finally the Church is actually doing something that promotes the separation of the state from the church.
Daniel Allen, Belo Horizonte, Brazil, Sept. 30
This is not reasonable. It's time Canada broke off relations with the Vatican.
Anthony Oland, Wasaga Beach, Sept. 30
Ontario already has a violation of (the separation of) church and state: Catholic schools supported by public taxpayers. If the Church wants to involve itself in politics, maybe now is a good time to consider one education system for all Ontarians.
James Taylor, Toronto, Sept. 30
Politicians are suppose to represent the people of the country, governing based on the beliefs of their constituents. Surely the Catholic Church should not strong-arm politicians into ignoring those who voted for them. Perhaps not all politicians even believe in same-sex marriage on a personal level, but realize making it legal is the just thing to do.
Jodi Combe, Southampton, Sept. 30
If the bishops and the Pope want to control the votes of elected officials, I would seriously have to question voting for a Catholic candidate. And I'm a Catholic myself.
Joe Pritchard, Toronto, Sept. 30
The Catholic Church needs to understand that not everyone in the world is Catholic, and some people might actually have different views. How dare the Pope even suggest that they would try to influence politicians with this threat. We elected our government to make decisions. We did not elect the mighty Catholic Church to make decisions for us.
John Salovaara, North Bay, Sept. 30
Not just politicians, but any people who violate Church doctrine and do not follow the rules of a religion should not be partaking in Communion. What makes that unreasonable?
Rob Remba, Toronto, Sept. 30
This is very reasonable. These politicians would sell their souls for votes. The current government is anti-Christian as demonstrated by actions on legislation.
Michael Forbes, Burlington, Sept. 30
If it doesn't break the law of the land, separation of Church and State for me means that I do not comment on whether a tenet of someone's faith is reasonable.
Justin Tyleman, Toronto, Sept. 30
It should not be a problem for churches weighing in on political matters. Let's hear from them. Also, let's tax them like any other corporation. Pay to play is the answer.
Greg Fehrenbach, Tweed, Sept. 30更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net