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关于原创 (2)

看到有人认为我对原创的定义太苛刻, 多少有点奇怪。 也许是不同的行业有不同的游戏规则, 对于作研究的人来讲, 引用他人的结果, 无论多么微不足道, 或发表在多么不重要的杂志上, 都要标明出处, 以示对他人“第一” 的称认和尊重。 在这点上, 共产主义的老祖宗马克思据说做的很好,因他在其《资本论》中引用了很多无名者(应是不那么有名) 的论点并标明出处。 也许在音乐界是另一套规则, 名气大的人如德沃夏克,肖邦则可以“the winner takes all”. 但就个人而言, 我更喜欢公平一些的规则。

又: 有原创能力的人并不一定都要耳聋, 莫扎特, 舒伯特都听力正常, 但这并不妨碍他们的灵感。
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下拾英 / 乐韵书香 / 萨拉萨蒂的《流浪者之歌》(海菲茨演奏)
    • 这个要顶,从小就喜欢的。吉普赛人的痛苦生活描绘得很准确。不过萨拉萨蒂始终没忘记他们的乐观。
    • 曲子荡气回肠,更会勾起回忆片片,实在不敢多听。。。
    • 好的音乐听多少次都是好听
    • .
    • 记得一个名人曾在这里贴过,关于那个时代小提琴大师的文章,好像萨拉萨蒂与海飞丝的老师奥尔是死对头,原帖找不到了。anyway,萨拉萨蒂用西班牙人的感性,将吉普赛人的流浪生活融入在作品中,同样,海飞丝以犹太人特有的理解,来诠释这个作品,堪称精品。。。
    • 谢谢回帖的朋友。曲子真得很好听,只是这个海费茨看着特别陌生。记得小的时候在电视上看到的海费茨是个胖老头,双下巴。
      • 你肯定是海费茨,不是奥依斯特拉赫?
        • 肯定,要不怎么就记住了“流浪者之歌”是海费茨拉的呢。
          • 基本上说,所有的小提琴大师不仅都拉过《流浪者之歌》,而且都有自己的录音版本。仰视你从小就见过海飞丝大师,俺出国之后才见过海飞丝大师,还是在D版上见过。。。:(
        • 就我所知, 海菲茨所用的琴是瓜尔涅利所制, 而奥依斯特拉赫的琴则很大的可能是斯特拉底瓦利所制。这两家琴声的区别应该不难听出来
          • 萨拉萨蒂当年使用的是斯特拉底瓦利的琴,是不是奥依斯特拉赫版本更原汁原味?。。。
            • 萨拉萨蒂
              萨拉萨蒂是个“阳光男孩“ 式的演奏家, 传言说他的琴声是如此的明媚, 以致于听多了会让人昏昏欲睡。 也许《吉普赛之歌》真正吸引他的是技巧的挑战性。 但他不是原创者, 只是改编者。以《吉普赛之歌》本身所要表达的主题来看,唯有象海菲茨这样在技巧和表现上都达到了顶峰的人才能搞出”原汁原味“, 尽管萨拉萨蒂改编了它。
              • 萨拉萨蒂不是原创还是头一次听说,请问有出处吗?另外,人们把萨拉萨蒂评价为,是帕格尼尼之后,最伟大的小提琴作曲家兼演奏家,评价很高的说。。。
                • 我想这里有个对“原创” 的不同理解。容我这两天忙完手头的事, 再继续和您讨论。 多谢。
                • 又: 关于萨拉萨蒂, 帕格尼尼,和其他同代小提琴家孰优孰劣的问题, 眼下活着的人里无人亲耳听过, 只能采摘别人的评价。 我更愿比较能够亲身感受到的东西。
                  • 这个观点我完全同意。我也觉得后人对帕格尼尼忽悠的成分太多。萨拉萨蒂还是有些本事的,当时很多大作曲家都曾将自己的小提琴作品献给他,可见他当时还是很有水平的。当然也可能他是“阳光男孩“ 式的演奏家,比较吸引观众,所以人们愿意由他来公演。。。
                • 关于原创
                  本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛上周曾谈到关与萨拉萨蒂是否是《吉普赛之歌》(Zigeunerweisen)的原创者。 现给出相关网址以供参考 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_violinists)。 我之所以不把萨拉萨蒂作为《吉普赛之歌》 的原创者, 是基于以下几点:

                  1。 如同该网站与史料所记, 《吉普赛之歌》(Zigeunerweisen)的主体旋lui (或大部分)是建立在吉普赛人已有的民间音乐曲调之上 ( Zigeunerweisen is based on themes of the Roma people, specifically the rhythms of the csárdás.)。 而他的另一作品, 《卡门幻想曲》(Carmen Fantasy )则主要建立在比才的舞剧《卡门》的主旋lui上(the Carmen Fantasy (1883), also for violin and orchestra, makes use of themes from Georges Bizet's opera Carmen.)。

                  2。 我个人以为, 所谓原创, 乃是指如下情形: 如贝多芬第五交响曲, 从最简单的四个音符, 演绎出一首恢宏的大作, 或如舒伯特(如果所传属实)在小酒馆里灵感突至, 在菜单的背面一挥而就, 从而有了不朽的《小夜曲》。 在这两例里,都不存在从别人的或已有的曲调里采摘的作法, 而纯粹是灵感与思维的火花。

                  3。 从更广义的角度来讲, 所谓原创, 是指人大脑所产生的前所未有的产物。如欧几里德几何, 从几个简单公理出发, 演绎出一套严密的逻缉体系。 或如爱因斯坦的相对论,给出前所未有的宇宙观, 不一而足。

                  以上几点,既是为什么我不把萨拉萨蒂做为《吉普赛之歌》的原创者的理由, 尽管他是作曲者。 我个人以为, 作曲者并不完全等同于原创者。 如同柴可夫斯基, 尽管他是一个伟大的作曲家, 但由于他的作品中大量采用了俄罗斯民间音乐,以至于我很难把他和巴赫, 莫扎特, 贝多芬, 舒伯特等等量齐观。

                  (以下是该网站介绍萨拉萨蒂的原文)


                  Pablo Martín Melitón de Sarasate y Navascués (March 10, 1844 - September 28, 1908, pronounced Sah-ra-SAH-teh), was a Spanish violin virtuoso and composer of the Romantic period.
                  Pablo Sarasate was born in Pamplona, Spain, the son of an artillery bandmaster. He began studying the violin with his father at the age of five and later took lessons from a local teacher but his musical talent became evident early on and he appeared in his first public concert in La Coru?a at the age of eight. His performance was well-received, and caught the attention of a wealthy patron who provided the funding for Sarasate to study under Manuel Rodríguez Saez in Madrid where he gained the favor of Queen Isabel II. Later, as his abilities developed, he was sent to study under Delfín Alard at the Paris Conservatoire at the age of twelve. There, at seventeen, Sarasate entered a competition for the coveted Premier Prix and won his first prize, the Conservatoire's highest honor.
                  Sarasate made his debut as a concert violinist in 1860, and played in London the following year. Over the course of his career, he toured many parts of the world, performing in Europe, North America, and South America. His artistic pre-eminence was due principally to the purity of his tone, which was free from any tendency towards the sentimental or rhapsodic, and to that impressive facility of execution that made him a virtuoso. In his early career, Sarasate performed mainly opera fantasies (most notably the Carmen Fantasy) and various other pieces that he had composed. The popularity of Sarasate's Spanish flavor in his compositions is reflected in the work of his contemporaries. For example, the influences of Spanish music can be heard in such notable works as Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole (dedicated to Sarasate), Bizet's Carmen, and Saint-Sa?ns' Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso (also dedicated).
                  The playwright Bernard Shaw once declared that though there were many composers of music for the violin, there were but few composers of violin music. Of Sarasate's talents as performer and composer, Shaw said that he "left criticism gasping miles behind him." Sarasate's own compositions are mainly flashy show-pieces designed to demonstrate his exemplary technique. Perhaps the best known of his works is Zigeunerweisen (1878), a work for violin and orchestra. Another piece, the Carmen Fantasy (1883), also for violin and orchestra, makes use of themes from Georges Bizet's opera Carmen. Probably his most performed encores are his two books of Spanish dances, brief pieces designed to please the listener's ear and show off the performer's talent. He also made arrangements of a number of other composers' work for violin, and composed sets of variations on "potpourris" drawn from operas familiar to his audiences, such as his Fantasia on La Forza del Destino (his Opus 1), his "Souvenirs of Faust", or his variations on themes from Die Zauberfl?te. In 1904 he made a small number of recordings.
                  Sarasate died in Biarritz, France on September 20, 1908 from chronic bronchitis. He bequeathed his 1724 Stradivarius, dubbed "The Sarasate" in his memory, to the Real Conservatorio Superior de Música of Madrid. The Pablo Sarasate International Violin Competition is held in Madrid.
                  A number of works for violin were dedicated to Sarasate, including Henryk Wieniawski's Violin Concerto No. 2, ?douard Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole, Camille Saint-Sa?ns' Violin Concerto No. 3 and his Introduction and Rondo capriccioso " Spanish Dances ", and Max Bruch's Scottish Fantasy.

                  Zigeunerweisen (Gypsy Airs) (Op. 20) is a piece for violin and orchestra (or violin and piano) by the Spanish composer and virtuoso Pablo de Sarasate. Sarasate himself is quoted to have said "Zigeunerweisen was composed by the World's greatest composer; Pablo de Sarasate for the World's greatest violinist; Pablo de Sarasate".[citation needed] It is Sarasate's most popular composition and is a favorite among violin virtuosos. It has been recorded many times by such notable violinists as Zino Francescatti, Jascha Heifetz, Itzhak Perlman, Kyung-Wha Chung, Gil Shaham, Midori Goto and Anne-Sophie Mutter. It has also been played in the 2003 film, Together.
                  Written in 1878 and premiered in Leipzig that year, Zigeunerweisen is based on themes of the Roma people, specifically the rhythms of the csárdás. Zigeunerweisen is in C minor. A performance will usually take about eight minutes.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                  • 谢谢引经据典。关于音乐作品原创的定义,我觉得你的说法太苛刻,按这样的定义,德沃夏克的第九交响曲也不能算原创了,肖邦的许多作品都不能算原创了,大概只有贝多芬的作品算原创,因为他耳聋无法吸取其他音乐素材,个人认为萨拉萨蒂应该是这个作品的原创。。。
                    • 关于原创 (2)
                      看到有人认为我对原创的定义太苛刻, 多少有点奇怪。 也许是不同的行业有不同的游戏规则, 对于作研究的人来讲, 引用他人的结果, 无论多么微不足道, 或发表在多么不重要的杂志上, 都要标明出处, 以示对他人“第一” 的称认和尊重。 在这点上, 共产主义的老祖宗马克思据说做的很好,因他在其《资本论》中引用了很多无名者(应是不那么有名) 的论点并标明出处。 也许在音乐界是另一套规则, 名气大的人如德沃夏克,肖邦则可以“the winner takes all”. 但就个人而言, 我更喜欢公平一些的规则。

                      又: 有原创能力的人并不一定都要耳聋, 莫扎特, 舒伯特都听力正常, 但这并不妨碍他们的灵感。
                      • 圈阅,谢谢。
    • 多谢!
      真高兴能再次听到久违的海菲茨。 此曲我听过不少版本, 唯有海氏的演奏, 如同一位乐评人所说, 表现的就是这首曲子本身。 海氏的严谨, 精确, 细腻, 以及冷峻下的激情, 在这里得到了很好的说明。 我由此想到他演奏过的另外几首小品, 如柴可夫斯基的《旋lui> , 圣桑的《哈巴涅拉》, 及古诺的《圣母颂》, 等等, 等等。 我个人觉得领教海氏风格的最好办法是同一曲子比较着听。如加拉米安的三大弟子可谓当代小提琴家的翘首, 但佩尔曼在演奏旋lui一曲的跳弓部分时不如海氏圆润灵巧。 而朱可曼(听说现在在加拿大)的贝多芬F大调浪漫曲则比海氏多了一份温情, 但不如梅纽因含有一点辛酸的味道, 尽管朱可曼的布鲁赫g小调在我看来登峰造极。
    • 真正有质量的好贴都被没水准的口水贴顶下去了真是气煞我也你们好好想想吧拜拜8888~~~~~
    • 原来这个就是《流浪者之歌》啊,我原来有一张那个大脑门德国大姐穆特的CD,里面就有这个,我听了好多遍啊