OK. This is what I meant: -mikesmith(老猫) @华人论坛:枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of

工作学习 / 科技领域杂谈 / 有人骂C++真是太好了，终于戳穿了这个皇帝的新衣。这个该死的语言害的我好惨，学C++的真不好找工作。我知道我脑子笨，但要不是它那么难学难用，十几年前也许我也不会改行。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 {815} (#5780712@0)
大学2年级1991年从Turbo Pascal起步，编了若干小软件，如小防毒软件和小中文编辑器，还是满喜欢编程的。直到后来C++的出现，它的WIN32,类库，让我这个懒惰的人失去了对电脑的兴趣。Visual C++的出现缓解了一些问题。但这个语言的本质问题却永远无法解决：它太复杂了。对一个头脑简单又热爱电脑的人，比如我，学习它简直太痛苦了。我相信一个计算机界的真理：简单的必定会战胜复杂的。现在这个社会象我这中等智力的懒人太多，大家没工夫学它个3年5载成为专家。除非一些jerk编操作系统，编译器，数据库需要用到C++的强大功能，对于一般的business requirement, commercial web application, who cares什么编程语言。前些年visual basic就挺好。后来java也不错。直到什么j2ee，把这个好冬冬又复杂化了。这不是缺心眼儿嘛 - 等着微软推出一个简单易上手的对等产品。我就烦那些难学的玩意，这东西一旦复杂了，就一定有什么东西从骨子里不对 - 也一定注定了早晚被人们抛弃，就象C++。

I think the concept of IDE is a revolution. It helps the programmers focusing on ideas, rather than detailed syntax and spelling. -sailor(Mountains&Ocean); 2010-1-4 (#5780775@0)

agreed -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 (#5781087@0)

皇帝的新衣? C++有十多年了吧？您才学的？那是系统的基础，目前还没有替代。您那装修搞得再好，也别去动家里房子结构。 -firetrain(火车头); 2010-4-27 (#6037008@0)

When I started learning C++, it was in 1991. I knew the history well. Retreating as a system language was not what it intended to be. So sad. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-27 (#6037405@0)

粗略感觉到C++衰退是因为微软胡乱扩展污染了标准，其混乱的MFC，ATL...实现方式破坏了C++持续发展的可能性。然后微软可以继续卖他的私货操作系统，所有问题堆到.net 解决?。。。 -firetrain(火车头); 2010-4-27 (#6037457@0)

Anyone remember Visual J++, M$'s attempt to hijack and suffocate Java. -iron(iron man); 2010-4-27 (#6037871@0)

In '99, I used it for some school projects at home.. One project requested RMI, one needed CORBA, which it did not support. Mostly I used Sun Java Workshop at the time, or just JDK with ORB. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-28 (#6038255@0)

In this point we should not mix C++ language with MS framework/library (MFC, ATL...) and particular C++ compilers. -fang_yi2000(Tom); 2010-4-28 (#6039014@0)

你要是用过UNIX就不会说这些了 -oasis(oasis); 2010-1-4 (#5780780@0)

i used it on Solaris - and it was a first order logic implementation using a parallel algorithm on multiple machines.. just hate it -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 (#5781071@0)

其实都是语言，那个有用就用那个，完全行业需要。Ｃ＋＋现在远远没被淘汰。 -wade(_); 2010-1-4 (#5780828@0)

come on, you can't be a programmer.. it is not something for a fine lady -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 (#5781084@0)

I am a programmer. My company's software is still used C++ to design and implement. U can say u hate C++, but u can't say C++ should be..... -leonhano(haozi); 2010-1-29 (#5846316@0)
fine lady 定义，上得厅堂，下得厨房，翻得了防火墙，都得过小三，小小c++ 不在话下。。。 -webbwebb(rr_rolia); 2010-3-30 (#5980921@0)

+++ :D -iron(iron man); 2010-5-1 (#6045587@0)

C++复杂? HA! -wincity(toad); 2010-1-4 (#5780859@0)

难者不会，会者不难 -yo1yo2(青青); 2010-1-4 (#5780877@0)
of course, to someone as bright as you,it is easy.. not to me,though -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 (#5781077@0)

I didn't say it's easy, only it's not "complicated". "Simplicity" is a UNIX mantra and C++ is no exception. -wincity(toad); 2010-1-5 (#5782771@0)

if simplicity was one of the goals for C++, I will say it has failed this goal. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-5 (#5783367@0)

support......... c++ has a good idea to combine c with oo. -webbwebb(rr_rolia); 2010-3-31 {197} (#5981135@0)
however, i believe it also failed on that because it combined c with oo. oo could be simpler without c, c could be more flexible without oo. maybe from day 1, the design target for c++ is wrong. ?

agreed. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-27 (#6036893@0)

至少没指针 -dodotoron(哇咧); 2010-1-4 (#5781089@0)

yep, thats one plus -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-4 (#5781096@0)

任何简单的东西深入下去都不简单。 -pipibug(我真的是个歌剧爱好者); 2010-1-4 (#5781129@0)

任何复杂的东西深入下去都不复杂。 -ysysning(豆泡果之樱桃果果); 2010-1-5 (#5781726@0)

ever occur to you why OS/2, ATM, Token Ring, those technically superior but more complex technologies all lost to their inferior but easy to learn counter parts? because people in their nature are - LAZY -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-5 (#5783769@0)

为什么不转C#？ -binghongcha76(一只大猫); 2010-1-5 (#5781782@0)
学理工的，艺多不养人，如果不把软件硬化，硬件软化，这碗饭吃不长久。 -outlooker(Outlooker); 2010-1-5 (#5781815@0)

很有道理。 -ding_ding(丁_丁); 2010-1-5 (#5782783@0)

改用Python吧，小学生都可以学会。 -ding_ding(丁_丁); 2010-1-5 (#5782787@0)

给小学生玩，try try Small Basic吧，微软刚出的 -binghongcha76(一只大猫); 2010-1-5 (#5782945@0)

现在估计90％的桌面应用程序还是c, c++写的。比起C, C++算够好的了。apple 的iphone不是还用object C? OS X, win7, office 甚至java不还是C/C++写的？ -hillman(山大王); 2010-1-5 (#5783068@0)

C and C++ is two different language. OS is not written by C++. -iwantcar_majia(iwantcar); 2010-1-5 (#5783080@0)

Who cares if Mikesmith is dumb or not, let's just look at the language itself - why C++ has failed in some major way. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-5 {835} (#5783425@0)
If you lived long enough in the software world, as I did, you would remember, once upon a time, before JAVA, NOTHING would even came close to it. It was the diamond on the crown of the king. C++ was designed as a general purpose language, efficient and portable as C, with OO in its heart. Today, no sensible person would ever deem C++ as a "general" purpose language, but rather it has retreated to be a system and embedded programming language. OOP is all about hiding low level details. If the strengths of C++ is in the hardware access then maybe it's not so useful for OO programming? And the truth is, other languages such as JAVA, C#, and even PHP, have long replaced C++ in the business application world. Being a C++ programmer may be a previlige to some poeple, apparently it has lost its attraction to many employers.

The truth is, C++ has never failed. It even holds its position today. Only people who failed to learn C++ at that time could have failed. -youbet(寻常巷陌); 2010-1-5 (#5783450@0)

i'd be thrilled to hear more facts to support the argument -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-5 {43} (#5783712@0)
at least the job market is saying otherwise

实时程序不能使用JAVA和C#，因为GC的性能不能控制。伦敦股票交易所用C#写，荡了好几次，现在要用C++重写。 -cerboros_redux(Cerboros Reborn); 2010-1-5 (#5783610@0)

apparently you are in agreement with my points. thanks -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-5 (#5783715@0)

Java不能取代C++的关键是:1. 速度慢,2.费资源. -bully2007(2007); 2010-1-6 (#5783798@0)

for general business apps, which consist the majority of the jobs, employers could care less of how fast the code can run on a machine, but how fast it can be developed. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-1-6 {238} (#5783908@0)
and c++ could be used for those who care. But it is no longer a "general" purpose language as it was 10+ years ago. it is declining in its popularity. simple fact, just search c++ and java as a key word on monster and see how many hits.

Please search "Window" and "Mac" keyword on monster, see how many hits. As u said, means mac is no longer a "general" platform to be developer???? -leonhano(haozi); 2010-1-29 {279} (#5846359@0)
U just focus all things u want to know, ignore things u don't want. Language is language, no one is best. Take some courses like Data structure & algorithms, Software Engineering & Design pattern, etc, u will learn more and get a new thinking in computer software design field.

Mac only counts for about 10% market share for end user desktops. And on server market, Mac server has a even smaller market share.... from this stand point, Mac is not really a general platform.... -webbwebb(rr_rolia); 2010-3-31 (#5981132@0)

支持一下。反对所有面向对象的所谓现代编程语言。创造了太多的弱智程序员，完全abuse了电脑资源，严重污染环境。唯一好处是，创造了大量就业机会，因为需要更多的人来清理垃圾。 -bdbs(不多不少); 2010-1-29 (#5846594@0)

C++ 在多线程下开销太大，如防火墙plugin用C效率最高，而且“指针”是高效率的基础。Java 和Objective-C类似，都生成字节码，在ARM7 下效率较高。 -outlooker(Outlooker); 2010-4-3 (#5987590@0)

您见过C++的线程？神人。 -steven99ca(Don); 2010-4-30 (#6043788@0)

SIP / H.323 的开源码都是C++的线程. -outlooker(Outlooker); 2010-4-30 (#6044395@0)

拜托，那是系统相关调用，关C++屁事！ -steven99ca(Don); 2010-4-30 (#6044545@0)

看完代码再来出气！ -outlooker(Outlooker); 2010-4-30 (#6044551@0)

不用，你提的这些玩意儿我太熟啦。您还真不懂C++。有点不客气哈。 -steven99ca(Don); 2010-4-30 (#6044563@0)

支持。应用程序C++，C都不该用。翻开公司的C和C++的程序，里面bug无数。最好的语言是COBOL。 -x888(谷姐goojje.com); 2010-3-30 (#5980934@0)

汇编语言比COBOL强大。 -lionel(Lionel); 2010-4-3 (#5987902@0)
Oh my God. -diastole(阿猫阿狗); 2010-4-27 (#6036587@0)

COBOL is good in that it is self documentary. and that is probably why it refuse to die after the funeral of it announced more than 20 years ago. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-27 (#6036891@0)

Agreed! -pr3dat0r(Coder); 2010-4-3 {201} (#5987487@0)
85年大学毕业，至今已有20多年，主要的语言都用过，到目前为止，还是PASCAL和DELPHI最好，现在公司(HealthCare)所有项目还都用它，在这里还是有多好的公司在用Delphi，可惜的是会的人很少，否则的话，Job机会很多的。
开自动档的说方便，开手动档的说效率，都开过的来比较一下，都没开过的可以数一下市场份额。码完字后该干啥干啥。 -fang_yi2000(Tom); 2010-4-9 (#6000281@0)
哈哈哈，露相了吧，我怎么就越学越带劲呢？ -zhousx18(心想事成); 2010-4-27 (#6036281@0)

I'd never be ashamed to tell the truth. And I am pretty confident that I am still good after telling the truth. I don't pretend to be someone I am not. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-27 (#6036878@0)

老猫为何不把solaris也骂啦？windows多好用。C++还是有长处滴，不要偏激。也没那么高深，玩玩熟，2年足矣。 -steven99ca(Don); 2010-4-30 (#6043778@0)

Solaris就不用我骂了，默哀吧。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-4-30 (#6044420@0)

如果windows真的能全面替代这些*NIX，那C++也绝对该死。呵呵。。。 -steven99ca(Don); 2010-4-30 (#6044560@0)

真G8扯淡，忍了很久了，终于忍不住说两句。这种破玩意也能成热点，是不是就是传说中为了提高点击率的月经贴？太极拳八卦掌形意少林拳击柔道自由搏击哪个最厉害？扳子锤子改锥电钻和锯那个最方便？ -renjl0810(Virtual Void); 2010-4-30 {148} (#6044602@0)
想必大家都会说，没有最厉害的拳术只有最厉害的人，换句话说，没有拳术本身的好坏只有联系全书的人的素质高低；而那种工具最方便要看你准备做什么。仅此而已。

Short gun is still a better weapon -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6044843@0)

这个帖子怎么就死不了呢？很纳闷。 -wincity(toad 会英文的红卫兵); 2010-5-1 (#6044844@0)

很郁闷 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6044900@0)
就是。搞球不懂！典型的吃不着葡萄说葡萄酸。我见过的开得最高的programmer就是用C++，年薪$300K+Bonus。 -iron(iron man); 2010-5-1 {2643} (#6045449@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛We need a few experts with C++, Linux,STL, Multi Threading, context switching, high frequency, ultra low latency trading software development, Chicago. $200- $300Kbase plus bonus!!

We need an expert with C++, Linux, STL,Multi Threading, context switching, high frequency, ultra low latency trading software development, complete front to back trading flow.
Key job duties- Financial apps, market data feeds, API's order routing protocols.
This is a ground floor opportunity for a very successful prop trading firm. You will work hand in hand with he traders and take ideas from inception to implementation.
You will be paid very well for your key contributions with start up rewards with in an established firm

High Frequency C++ Developer

Join an extremely successful proprietary trading firm, specializing in algorithmic arbitrage trading. Seeking very talented, motivated developers who are interested in building automated trading applications from start to finish. You will work very closely with senior traders to take ideas from inception to implementation. The work environment is very relaxed and laid back, success is measured in trading profits, not by pretentious suits and ties.

This is an amazing opportunity for the right candidate. You will be working for a very small group which is rolling out tested strategies into new markets. You will have the excitement and immediate impact only possible from a start up, but with the highly capitalized stability provided by a well established proven trading company. Communication between programmers and traders is constant; you will not be pigeon holed with boring projects. You will be paid what you are worth, and more importantly, will have a bonus that will provide incentive to excel, and your excellence will be recognized and rewarded with a bonus package second to none in the industry.

Requirements:

× 5 years minimum experience in high frequency ultra low latency trading software development.
× Outstanding C/C++ ,STL skills.
× Strong understanding of Multi-threading and context switching.
× Experienced in financial markets and applications, including market data feeds and API's, order routing protocols and the complete front-to-back trading flow. Experience with high frequency environments, such as Exchange co-location a plus.
× Ability to communicate vision and ideas effectively to peers.

Tim Ryan

Vice President

Parallel Partners

205 W. Randolph, Suite 935

Chicago, IL 60606

Phone: 312.251.1865

Fax: 312.251.1868

Cell: 312.502.8671

Email: tim@parallelpartners.com

Website: www.parallelpartners.com更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

作为技术人员的基本素质：讲逻辑。个例无法代替整体。近十年C++程序员，每年新增多少职位，在就业市场上整体的表现才能说明问题。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 {1258} (#6045501@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛ZT..................." will C++ still be around 5 years from now? Of course it will. There is a pretty good code base out there using it and there are still those that cling to it like limpets.

If you have something to prove, C++ provides a lot of pointless opportunities. On the other hand those who jumped ship from C to C++ are increasingly jumping from C++ to Java or C# (just look up some of the old C++ gurus and see what their blogs are about now) and those who still haven’t dumped C aren’t likely to suddenly get a passion for object oriented design.

There is also the matter of the new C++ standard coming up. It will add a lot of very cool features to the language and it will include a lot of what is now the boost library as part of the standard distribution.

Will this re-invigorate the language? Well it is now 2008 and only a few compilers have come close to implementing the last version of C++. It could very well take another 10 for any to get on top of the new one and when they do, it will still have all the historical syntactical baggage I love to hate.

C++ will continue be a useful skill to have, particularly as the existing code base becomes expensive to maintain, but I’d be very careful of basing a career on it"更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
http://4thmouse.com/index.php/2008/02/17/why-c-is-a-dying-language/

别误解我的意思。我可没说C++机会多，我只是说C++赚钱多。看看链接中的统计吧：c++ $101,000；java $94,000；c# $89,000；cobol $77,000。不是我喜欢C++，只是凭事实依据说话。其实我的新欢是Scala。 -iron(iron man); 2010-5-1 (#6045553@0)

But that is exactly what I meant: c++ is no longer a general purpose language. I never said some elite cannot make money from it, and I never said it is not useful for os,db,compilers and embedded. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6045569@0)

What exactly do you mean？一开题，老猫就把咱老同志，架成了黄底，还是裸奔的那种。。。 -steven99ca(Don); 2010-5-3 (#6048328@0)

OK. This is what I meant: -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-3 {398} (#6048336@0)
1. C++ passed its peak
2. C++ is not easy to learn
3. C++ is not easy to find a job for new comers
4. Don't base your career on C++ if you are just starting
5. C++ is no loner a general purpose programming language for business apps
6. C++ is still function well in its own areas, such as O/S, Compilers, DB, Embedded etc.
7. Someone can still earn big bucks using C++, but don't bet on it

Agree with all but 1st point. C++'s peak (technology-wise) is yet to come. Check out C++0x or rather C++11 -iron(iron man); 2010-5-3 (#6048703@0)

Technology-wise peak? To me 0x looks more like another nail on its coffin. It won't be dead but will just keep losing ground to more lighweighter and simpler languages. All my work are C++ and I don't need a single "feature" from 0x. -liquid(豆泡松果之松果豆泡); 2010-5-3 (#6048942@0)

行行出状元, 当年写VB的基本都已经上了岸做起了Manager/Director,他们现在不写任何程序挣的钱却比写C++的还高 -coopers(Coopers); 2010-5-1 (#6045586@0)

我觉得不是吃不着葡萄说葡萄酸，是无知者无畏，没个工具有它的应用领域，这个领域正好是LZ看不到的地方； -eagle_no1(瞎起哄); 2010-5-1 (#6045552@0)

做操作系统, 做数据结构, ....... 全都离不开C++ 高手. 各个语言的升级换代,基本都与采用了C++新概念有关....做到这种程度的, 提到难学难用, 就激动的要练上一练, 当作小小的挑战, 这个贴子有些令人郁闷. -nicetomeetyou(淡定灌水); 2010-5-1 (#6045560@0)

I expected some debate, and I see myself as an average Joe. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6045577@0)

Most people are on the application development side, and using templates, using well-defined APIs, drag-and-drop is what they legitimately expect. Joe makes life better.;-) -nicetomeetyou(淡定灌水); 2010-5-1 (#6045728@0)

Agreed. But does it mean something? i.e. It has retreated to a system language, it is for a small group of self claimed elite programmers, it is no longer for general public? -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6045561@0)

you are right. java & c# (and VB.Net?) are for the general public. the average joe programmers. -iron(iron man); 2010-5-1 (#6045567@0)

And isn't that what I said from the beginning? -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-1 (#6045573@0)

Agreed. Never mind. Have you heard that "Java is the Cobol of the 21st century"? Poor us programmers. Never ending learning experiences. Old dogs still have to learn new tricks. :-( -iron(iron man); 2010-5-1 (#6045584@0)

C++ is used by me to Judge the programmer can be a real programmer or not. -newdog2(oo); 2010-5-13 {287} (#6067346@0)
If they are good at C++, they will be good at any language. Sometime, I just put bad programmer to Java or .net team, and keep the good one in c++ group. Btw, C++ developer usually get much better pay than Java and C#. It is also very hard to find a good C++ developer in the market.

OK. This is what I meant: -mikesmith(老猫); 5.3 17:55 (398 bytes. #6048336@0) more -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-5-13 (#6067353@0)

@

OK. This is what I meant:

Replies, comments and Discussions:

More Topics