Topic: 开贴的目的是看论坛上的人对战争的观感。 @华人论坛:枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of

Nobody wants wars, the question is what's the best way to prevent war. If you are weak and indecisive, your enemies will bring the wars to you even if you try to avoid it. History has taught us enough lessons on this -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681635@0)

以杀至杀？以毒攻毒？将危险扼杀在摇篮中。放眼望去，全世界都在按照你的这个逻辑行事。美国打了伊拉克，还准备对付伊朗。俄罗斯动了格鲁吉亚。中国好像也差不多的逻辑，对待反对的声音。难道对抗就是这个世界的主流。如果是这样，我敢保证，战争一定离我们很近了。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 {44} (#4681653@0)

战争一定离我们很近, Unfortunately, that is true. The next war will be fought on control of energy resources. Conflicts in Iraq, Afgan, Georgia, Sudan, etc are all mainly fought for that reason.As the world's energy, oil gradually running out, the conflicts will only get more intense. And there's no way to avoid it, (short of immigration to Mars) as we all rely on oil and energy to survive -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 {200} (#4681683@0)

In the initial stage of World War II, the USA behaved exactly what you want to see. "Well, the Nazi invaded Poland,Czech, the Japanese invaded China, Korea, but hey it's none of our business so we don't need to be involved". what happened next? -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681664@0)

二战的历史远比你阐释的复杂很多，从解密的资料来看，美国和其他盟国早期都资助过纳粹。纳粹迅速崛起和西方国家的政治需要是分不开的。既所谓的养护为患（其实伊拉克何尝不是美国自己扶植起来的政权？）。这个世界的很多因果是交织的。如果不是自己的利益受损，美国是不会卷入太平洋战争的。历史也许就彻底改写。当然没有也许，历史就是历史。反观今天的伊拉克战争，战略的意义远大于所谓的安全，人权等理由，否则美国先动手的应该是伊朗，而不是伊拉克。更加不是在制裁十多年后再下手。你也不用再替美国辩护，这件事情一定会有结果。毕竟一开始，美国就违法了。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 {396} (#4681709@0)

I'm not trying to find excuse for the US. Every country defends its own self interest, just like you and I defend our own self interests. Nobody is Saint. This will never be changed. -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681775@0)

是的，站在美国人的立场，我完全支持他们，但是站在伊拉克人的立场，那就是场错误。兵者，凶器也，国之大事，死生之地，存亡之道，不可不察也。更加不要说是一场根本不会赢的战争。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681796@0)

Neither you nor I have a right to represent the Iraqis. Only Iraqis can tell us whether they prefer the current situation or continue to be ruled by Saddam.If you ask how many civilians died since the US invasion. My question is, how many Iraqis died in Saddam's Iraq/Iran war, his many other tribal wars, and ethnic cleansing. And how many would have died if Saddam was allowed to remain in power. That explains why so many overseas Iraqis went on the streets to celebrate Saddam's fall, but people like you and many others who know very little about Iraq cry for them -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 {415} (#4681865@0)

我没有代表伊拉克人，也可能代表。我做的只是让人清楚地看到一场战争带来的杀戮和悲剧。战场上死去的以及因为战争而死去的普通人，和你我一样的人。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681875@0)
同样我也想表达我们无权代表正义。没有人有权假正义之名行杀戮之实。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681881@0)

没有人有权假正义之名行杀戮之实, yes but everybody does it. Russians, Arabs did it. Chinese did it when they invaded Vietnam and Korea. Again, there is no Saint in this world -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681893@0)

You can not avoid wars just like you can't avoid death. You have to kill your enemies before they kill you. This is just the rule of the jungle man. -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681912@0)

就这场战争，你确信伊拉克政权是美国的敌人？还是在第一场战争结束并制裁近10年后？美国至今能够提供足够的合法性？ -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681922@0)

你可以去查人数，不过我想不是萨达姆作恶，美国就可以继续，或是以纠正错误的名义。其次任何杀人事件的死亡人数不可能超过一场战争。战争就是杀人机器。你选择了战争就是选择了杀人。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681889@0)
你看到了海外庆祝的伊拉克人，我看到了伊拉克因战争死亡的民众。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681891@0)

Did you see the Iraqis civilians died in the Iran/Iraq war and many other smaller wars waged by Saddam? -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 (#4681906@0)

当然看到了，也看到了沙达姆如何铲除异己，搞种族屠杀。但是美国发动的是场非法的战争，值得你如此辩护吗？ -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4681919@0)

How do you define what is legal or illegal in international affair? Was it 'legal' for China to invade Vietnam and Korea? or Russia to invade Afgan and East Europe?The truth is, there's no law, every country just defends its own interest using all means at its disposal, including the war machine. It has been like this since the start of mankind. -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 {184} (#4682047@0)

美国的战争非法不是我定义的。首先美国发动战争是违背联合国宪章的。联合国秘书长安南在接受英国广播公司采访时公开表示，美国发动伊拉克战争是违法的。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 {1969} (#4682104@0)
战争本身就是在违反国际法，国际法只是把国际关系中的战争状态与战争事实通过公约、双边或多边条约以及国际惯例等加以限定和控制。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 {5920} (#4682113@0)

Now, please analyze if China is legal to invade Vietnam and Korea, and Russia is legal to invade Afgan, Georgia and East Europe under UN laws.If you can't prove these are legal, then perhaps what it tells you is UN laws can be manupilated and violated by any country who has the power, and thus it's basiclly useless -omega4(omega); 2008-9-11 {176} (#4682123@0)

中国对朝鲜本来就是和联合国军队打，都不在框架内，没有合不合法的问题。俄国入侵阿富汗同样是冷战时期。现在美国的入侵是公然违反联合国宪章。格鲁吉亚，到底谁入侵谁，还在扯皮中。 -kingsw(Steven); 2008-9-11 (#4682235@0)

你的话倾向性还强，而且在一点都不了解国际法的情况下，就凭想象违法还是不违法。先去仔细读读联合国宪章先。 -niu1986(只吃草的牛); 2008-9-11 (#4682264@0)

这么说，如果美国入侵中国，我相信这边的中国民运也有不少弹冠相庆的。所谓"海外"XX人的意见多半是由水分的，要知道美国豢养了很多这种走狗 -colourwolf(色狼); 2008-9-11 (#4682433@0)

@